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Thread: Hawking Claimed Black Holes Exist, Right?

  1. #101  
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    Looking at the lovely picture with the light cones you posted, you have to be really careful as this view is from an outside observer perspective. The observer inside the event horizon will experience time and space just fine in his own reference frame. He will see the elephant following him.
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  2. #102  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jilan View Post
    Looking at the lovely picture with the light cones you posted, you have to be really careful as this view is from an outside observer perspective.
    I'm not fond of that picture, besides, I've been trying to give a global perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jilan View Post
    The observer inside the event horizon will experience time and space just fine in his own reference frame. He will see the elephant following him.
    That's what they say, but it can't be true because of the infinite gravitational time dilation means the coordinate speed of light is zero. So light hasn't got to his eye yet. And it never ever will.
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  3. #103  
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    I will not accept those contradictions Markus. The infalling observer either stops at the event horizon or he doesn't.
    No one is asking you to accept any contradictions; we are trying to get you to see that there are no contradictions. You see a contradiction because you assume that what the external observer determines has global significance, but it doesn't; once you understand that he is just as local as anyone else, no contradiction exists.

    You might think these things are mathematical facts, but your justification is non-existent.
    I have given you very many justifications, as have others here, but you rejected or ignored them all. What else am I supposed to do to explain it ? You have made up your mind that the Schwarzschild bookkeeper coordinates are "the global picture"; it is easy to give mathematical arguments, but it is very hard to change someone's personal opinion.
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  4. #104  
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    Why is the Farsight troll still here?
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  5. #105  
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    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    No one is asking you to accept any contradictions; we are trying to get you to see that there are no contradictions. You see a contradiction because you assume that what the external observer determines has global significance, but it doesn't; once you understand that he is just as local as anyone else, no contradiction exists.
    Not so. There's a contradiction between two interpretations of general relativity, see The Formation and Growth of Black Holes :

    "Remember that historically the two most common conceptual models for general relativity have been the "geometric interpretation" (as originally conceived by Einstein) and the "field interpretation" (patterned after the quantum field theories of the other fundamental interactions). These two views are operationally equivalent outside event horizons, but they tend to lead to different conceptions of the limit of gravitational collapse.

    According to the field interpretation, a clock runs increasingly slowly as it approaches the event horizon (due to the strength of the field), and the natural "limit" of this process is that the clock just asymptotically approaches "full stop" (i.e., running at a rate of zero) as it approaches the horizon. It continues to exist for the rest of time, but it's "frozen" due to the strength of the gravitational field. Within this conceptual framework there's nothing more to be said about the clock's existence. This leads to the "frozen star" conception of gravitational collapse.

    In contrast, according to the geometric interpretation, all clocks run at the same rate, measuring out real distances along worldlines in spacetime. This leads us to think that, rather than slowing down as it approaches the event horizon, the clock is following a shorter and shorter path to the future. In fact, the path gets shorter at such a rate that it actually reaches (our) future infinity in finite proper time..."


    We dropped the clock into the black hole an hour ago. Where did it fetch up? At the event horizon or at some central singularity? It can't be both. Remember that Kevin Brown originally referred to Wheeler and Weinberg, and that Einstein would never have agreed with the point-singularity. The sentiment that there is no contradiction is a Wheelerism, wherein his interpretation is deemed to be the only interpretation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke View Post
    I have given you very many justifications, as have others here, but you rejected or ignored them all. What else am I supposed to do to explain it? You have made up your mind that the Schwarzschild bookkeeper coordinates are "the global picture"; it is easy to give mathematical arguments, but it is very hard to change someone's personal opinion.
    Let's look again at your justifications. I'll reread the thread for starters.
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  6. #106  
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    Quote Originally Posted by x0x View Post
    why is the farsight troll still here?

    MODERATOR NOTE: Without speaking on behalf of the other moderators, it is my view that any person who can generate interesting discussion on the forum, whether they be crackpot, troll, or whatever, is a valuable member of the forum.
    Jilan likes this.
    A tensor equation that is valid in any coordinate system is valid in every coordinate system.
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  7. #107  
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    Thanks KJW. I find all this stuff about time and light and gravity and black holes fascinating myself. You start with simple one little thing like what does a clock really do? and it's like pulling a thread and out comes a string of pearls. And there's more. After black holes there's firewalls and other cosmological stuff like dark energy dark matter and inflation and the expanding universe. Of course, you and others might not agree with what I say, but if we all agreed about everything there wouldn't be much point discussing anything. And meanwhile we all learn from one another and I get useful feedback to hone my explanations and it's good to talk.
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