Notices
Results 1 to 56 of 56
Like Tree13Likes
  • 1 Post By Physicist
  • 1 Post By Boing3000
  • 1 Post By Ophiolite
  • 1 Post By SpeedFreek
  • 2 Post By Jilan
  • 1 Post By SpeedFreek
  • 1 Post By Boing3000
  • 1 Post By Boing3000
  • 1 Post By Jilan
  • 2 Post By Markus Hanke
  • 1 Post By Ophiolite

Thread: A gentleman and a scholar....

  1. #1 A gentleman and a scholar.... 
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    551
    I was terribly dismayed at Ophiolite for accusing me for something that I didn't believe that I deserved. The cause of this was simply human error which Ophiolite found and immediately recognized as such. The beautiful the whole thing was that the moment Ophiolite recognized this he responded to it with a hearty and gentlemanly response, i.e. he apologized the moment he recognized that he made an error. To me this means that Ophiolite is a gentleman and a scholar and a fine judge of legs, wine and women.

    I was thoroughly impressed with his immediate action and apology that I thought that he deserved an equally hearty acceptance of his apology since he's doing what I hope is a standard of what an apology should look like in a physics discussion forum.

    So I said I very humble accept your apology Ophiolite.
    Last edited by Physicist; 09-14-2014 at 05:36 AM.
    Jilan likes this.
     

  2. #2  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    That is most probably true. What is also true is that he have banned Beer w Straw for not breaking any rules of the forum.

    Nobody's perfect, and that makes the world an interesting place.
    mayflow likes this.
     

  3. #3  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    551
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    That is most probably true. What is also true is that he have banned Beer w Straw for not breaking any rules of the forum.
    Well, I know she asked to be banned. Maybe that was it. Did he say why he banned her? What about Gerry? I heard about claims of a death threat but he doesn't appear to me to be the kind of person who does that. Did he say where it happened?
     

  4. #4  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist
    Well, I know she asked to be banned.
    Yeah, my point entirely. In no way, there is a rule that says "everybody gets a wish".

    For your other point, I am alarmed, because although English is not my first language, I have read such threat... I would not qualify that as "claims"
     

  5. #5  
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    At the foot of Bennachie
    Posts
    67
    Where possible and practical I intend to explain any bannings over which questions arise. In the thread where Beer w/straw was banned I had made a post, as moderator, clearly identifying it as a moderator post in which I said.

    Moderator Warning:Your participation in the forum (Specific members names) suggests you are able to read. In that case I suspect you have read Markus's appeal to all members to raise the standard of posting. These last two posts are exactly what he was talking about. They are not acceptable. There are two ways of stopping them. You can choose to stop them, or I can stop them for you. You get a choice. Make the right one.

    No responses to this warning will be made in this thread. Any objections or comments may be made by sending me or another mod a pm, or reporting the post. If any of you like to experiment you can find out what happens when someone ignores this instruction by simply ignoring this instruction.


    In the next post, Beer w/straw made a comment praising one of the members who had received a warning. That was an implicit breach of the general warning just issued by me and an explicit breach of the warning issued by Markus. Banning at that point would have been appropriate. However, I posted this:

    That looks a great deal like a comment on/relating to my Moderator Warning. This is a physics forum. Discuss physics, not human behaviour. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, but do not test my patience. You will discover I do not have any

    Beer w/straw responded with "Ban me."

    Someone who is interested in supporting Markus's effort to clean up some of the behaviour on the forum would have said "Oops. Didn't realise how seriously you guys were taking this. Sorry. It won't happen again."

    Posting "Ban me" is simply taking the piss. It shows no respect for the forum, or for the stated goals of the staff. So, I banned him.
    Jilan likes this.
     

  6. #6  
    Administrator SpeedFreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    What is also true is that he have banned Beer w Straw
    It is a suspension, rather than a permanent ban. It expires in a couple of days or so.
     

  7. #7  
    Administrator SpeedFreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    What about Gerry? I heard about claims of a death threat but he doesn't appear to me to be the kind of person who does that. Did he say where it happened?
    I banned Gerry. It was a collection of posts, and the tone of those posts was completely unacceptable in a science forum:

    Here, "I don't like losing control, and the person I strike would suffer a collapsed trachea by deliberate intent on my part" here, "I don't fight fair" "I am psychotic"

    Combined with the fact that Gerry stated here, "I think I could live another thousand years, and still never accept the posits that have come from "SR".

    (I doubt A.E. would accept them either, but he is dead and can longer write "Scoundrels! Who think they know!" )"

    This is a forum for established science. It is a place where established science is to be discussed with decorum. It is not a place for people to claim that modern physicists are misinterpreting the words of Einstein, or going against Einstein's original theory. Hence Farsight is now banned too.
    Boing3000 likes this.
     

  8. #8  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    "That is most probably true. What is also true is that he have banned Beer w Straw for not breaking any rules of the forum.

    Nobody's perfect, and that makes the world an interesting place."

    Sorry man, I had to copy and paste this as the quote function does not work for me on this forum, but I agree with what you said very fully. Beer with straw I do not know, but he should have the rights of freedom of speech in my opinion. What do we ban next? Certain books? I understand that the admins want more nice and less personal attacks here and I fully agree with that as well, but I do believe it has to be done by setting examples and being nice to others and banning them is NOT nice.
     

  9. #9  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    997
    Is Farsight permanently banned too?
    mayflow and Physicist like this.
     

  10. #10  
    Administrator SpeedFreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by Jilan View Post
    Is Farsight permanently banned too?
    Yes.
    Physicist likes this.
     

  11. #11  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow
    Sorry man, I had to copy and paste
    I am waiting for the royalties to flow
    the quote function does not work for me on this forum,
    Just click the upper left icons of the editor to disable WISIWIG. Then place the test you want to quote between {quote=by some guy}some text{/quote}. Replace braces by brackets
     

  12. #12  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by Boeing3000
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow
    Sorry man, I had to copy and paste
    I am waiting for the royalties to flow
    the quote function does not work for me on this forum,
    Just click the upper left icons of the editor to disable WISIWIG. Then place the test you want to quote between {quote=by some guy}some text{/quote}. Replace braces by brackets
    I didn't follow the WISIWIG thing, but I did get the gist of what you said. Thanks man!
     

  13. #13  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow
    I didn't follow the WISIWIG thing
    My bad, it was WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). My english is terrible. That is the tool-tip you'll see if you let your mouse hover above the A/A icon.
    You will find other subtle tags here
    mayflow likes this.
     

  14. #14  
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    At the foot of Bennachie
    Posts
    67
    Beer with straw I do not know, but he should have the rights of freedom of speech in my opinion. What do we ban next? Certain books? I understand that the admins want more nice and less personal attacks here and I fully agree with that as well, but I do believe it has to be done by setting examples and being nice to others and banning them is NOT nice.
    Mayflow, I think you have been told this before, but none of us have any rights to freedom of speech on this forum. This is a private forum to which all of us are granted access on certain conditions. Not only do you not have any right to freedom of speech here, but neither do I.

    Indeed, I have fewer rights to freedom of speech on this forum than you do. You are free to challenge, as you do, many of the policies of the forum set by owners via the Admins. As a moderator I do not have that right. So, please drop the crap about freedom of speech - it is wholly irrelevant.

    Beer w/straw deliberately disrupted the smooth operation of this forum. That is wholly unacceptable. Stop defending what is wrong, it makes you look like a prat.

    We have tried being nice. It didn't work. If people want to behave likes arseholes, which Beer w/straw did, they will be treated like arseholes ...... and wiped. In this case only temporarily.
     

  15. #15  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000
    My bad, it was WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get). My english is terrible. That is the tool-tip you'll see if you let your mouse hover above the A/A icon.
    You will find other subtle tags here
    I appreciate your help and politeness!

    I can learn pretty well when people are nice and decent to me! R E S P E C T
     

  16. #16  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Mayflow, I think you have been told this before, but none of us have any rights to freedom of speech on this forum. This is a private forum to which all of us are granted access on certain conditions. Not only do you not have any right to freedom of speech here, but neither do I.
    I have no idea why you have written that. There is no such thing as a "private forum". That is an oxymoron.
    Beside you prove the contrary by using that freedom of speech, like every one of us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Indeed, I have fewer rights to freedom of speech on this forum than you do
    No you haven't. You may say whatever you wish, it must just follow the rule of this public place, this forum.
    I understand that having the moderator role, maybe force you to "higher standard" for your normal posting. I agree that it may be difficult, but mayflow may not agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    You are free to challenge, as you do, many of the policies of the forum set by owners via the Admins. As a moderator I do not have that right. So, please drop the crap about freedom of speech - it is wholly irrelevant.
    Nobody challenges any rules here. Forum rules define what a forum is. If some want "tea-room" rules or "under-my-porch" rule, they still can build such a site/concept. We will see if it works.
    Fun thing is, if I had written"drop the crap", I could have been moderated. But still, I agree with that statement 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Beer w/straw deliberately disrupted the smooth operation of this forum. That is wholly unacceptable
    That may be true. But I think mayflow have read the same post of hers.
    And, for once, I totally agree with her that physbang (and others) was really doing an exceptional job to handle a professional troll. And following every rule for that matter. I think many of us take really badly the previous post of yours, insinuating that physbang was bad behaving.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    We have tried being nice. It didn't work. If people want to behave likes arseholes, which Beer w/straw did, they will be treated like arseholes ...... and wiped
    Or whipped...
    Can you stop the crap about any of us wanting to ruins Markus life. He is the most gentle man and incredibly insightful while explaining physics.
    Now the professional troll is gone, we will resume normal business, that is: bickering about physics
     

  17. #17  
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    At the foot of Bennachie
    Posts
    67
    You are generally mistaken on most of the points you raise here. The only one I will specifically comment on is this: this is a private forum. It is open to members of the public at the discretion of the owner and his representatives. One of the conditions of access is that members follow the rules, implicit and explicit. Your alternative view on this is completely wrong.
     

  18. #18  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by SeacrustRockgeologist guy
    Mayflow, I think you have been told this before, but none of us have any rights to freedom of speech on this forum. This is a private forum to which all of us are granted access on certain conditions. Not only do you not have any right to freedom of speech here, but neither do I.

    Indeed, I have fewer rights to freedom of speech on this forum than you do. You are free to challenge, as you do, many of the policies of the forum set by owners via the Admins. As a moderator I do not have that right. So, please drop the crap about freedom of speech - it is wholly irrelevant.
    Just be nice to people. It works better than calling them arseholes and banning them, and you have to make less apologies to people who you have wronged.
     

  19. #19  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    Just be nice to people. It works better than calling them arseholes and banning them, and you have to make less apologies to people who you have wronged.

    Maybe that sounds good to you in theory, but as with all theories, one must look at the evidence. And the evidence overwhlemingly contradicts your view. Some people simply refuse to respond properly to niceness and thus create a toxic environment. Suspensions and banning are tools that moderators should wield judiciously, sure, but they absolutely should possess those tools. If someone persists in creating a toxic environment with petulant potty-mouthed behaviour despite "nice" "respectful" requests to desist, that person should be suspended. And if the behaviour persists, banned permanently.
     

  20. #20  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000
    That may be true. But I think mayflow have read the same post of hers.
    And, for once, I totally agree with her that physbang (and others) was really doing an exceptional job to handle a professional troll. And following every rule for that matter. I think many of us take really badly the previous post of yours, insinuating that physbang was bad behaving.
    I hadn't read that, but to me, if you are an admin or mod or "super mod" your duty is the opposite of impeding freedom of mind. Opheilite does not seem to think much of freedom of mind and speech, but I do.
     

  21. #21  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by TK421
    ]Maybe that sounds good to you in theory, but as with all theories, one must look at the evidence. And the evidence overwhlemingly contradicts your view. Some people simply refuse to respond properly to niceness and thus create a toxic environment. Suspensions and banning are tools that moderators should wield judiciously, sure, but they absolutely should possess those tools. If someone persists in creating a toxic environment with petulant potty-mouthed behaviour despite "nice" "respectful" requests to desist, that person should be suspended. And if the behaviour persists, banned permanently.
    No, I think that freedom of mind should surpass one's desires to make people conform or thrash them with whatever (even it is overall very feeble) force they may at the time may be empowered to.

    If you wish proof, how much nicer has this forum become since they decided to ban and warn people more - sure more people have been banned and warned, and also more people are going to rebel, like Beer with straw did, and then got banned for? You know, when you try an experiment and it backfires, you may think that beating up on people with different ideas may not be such a good idea afterall?
     

  22. #22  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    I hadn't read that, but to me, if you are an admin or mod or "super mod" your duty is the opposite of impeding freedom of mind. Opheilite does not seem to think much of freedom of mind and speech, but I do.
    In science, some things are demonstrably wrong. There is no freedom to assert demonstrably wrong things without being challenged. You react to being corrected and challenged as "brow beating" and "a lack of respect." It is neither. If you want to live in a world of rainbows and unicorns, that's your choice. But science has constraints. If you don't like that fact, that is your problem. Please don't make it everyone else's.
     

  23. #23  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    No, I think that freedom of mind should surpass one's desires to make people conform or thrash them with whatever (even it is overall very feeble) force they may at the time may be empowered to.
    No. The freedom to act out without consequence results in no freedom. Anarchy does not work.

    Sorry, Mayflow, but your suggestions are wholly without merit. The mods have the tough job of cleaning up the joint. I applaud their efforts. It's a thankless job, as is obvious from these exchanges.
     

  24. #24  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    If they did not ban or impede freedom of mind, then people would be free to be themselves. If all you are going to do is to be a sock puppet of the hiearchy, what is the point of open discussions?
     

  25. #25  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    If they did not ban or impede freedom of mind, then people would be free to be themselves. If all you are going to do is to be a sock puppet of the hiearchy, what is the point of open discussions?
    You're failing to acknowledge the existence of more than two possible modes.

    You're also (still) failing to understand the purpose of a science forum. There are constraints in science. There are also constraints on behaviour. You say you value niceness and respect, but what if someone wants to be free to be themselves, and they turn out to be disrespectful arses? What then?

    Your proposal basically relies on magical thinking. You can't merely wish niceness into existence.

    So stop trying.
     

  26. #26  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    They would become super moderators? and ban people? I can't wish that out of existence no matter how hard I try, but it does not mean I have to stop trying. Niceness should be a basic, and shown, not forced.
     

  27. #27  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    They would become super moderators? and ban people? I can't wish that out of existence no matter how hard I try.

    I think that you simply have a problem with authority (unless you're the one in charge, that is). Please work that out on your own time.

    This forum is for science.
     

  28. #28  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    TK, I asked you once before. If you wish to quote me, quote my whole post, please? I don't tend to make very lengthy posts, so it should be easy to do.
     

  29. #29  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    TK, I asked you once before. If you wish to quote me, quote my whole post, please? I don't tend to make very lengthy posts, so it should be easy to do.

    And I have told you before in response that I will respond to the parts that I wish to.

    For someone who claims that freedom of speech is so important, you seem curiously reluctant to extend it to others.
     

  30. #30  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow
    I hadn't read that, but to me, if you are an admin or mod or "super mod" your duty is the opposite of impeding freedom of mind. Opheilite does not seem to think much of freedom of mind and speech, but I do.
    No, absolutely not. Whatever you are associating with freedom of speech, it is not at any moderator duty to give it to you. The have the "ungrateful" role to do housekeeping, policing the place, asserting the rules.

    What Ophiolite opinions on the matter are, is for him to state, not you to imposed on us. Let's each of us made our opinion and form our judgment.
    To have different opinion of a matter is a sign that you have actual freedom at play.
    Also remember that any kind of freedom rely on a lots of rule to be asserted. Http protocol rules are the one that made this forum ticks, the rest is ** in the wind.
     

  31. #31  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Quote Originally Posted by TK421
    And I have told you before in response that I will respond to the parts that I wish to.

    For someone who claims that freedom of speech is so important, you seem curiously reluctant to extend it to others.
    That is simply untrue. I would never do that. You are free to speak as you may wish to me.
     

  32. #32  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    You are generally mistaken on most of the points you raise here.
    That could be worse, I could be precisely wrong about specific things. Apparently I am not, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    The only one I will specifically comment on is this: this is a private forum
    That is not a comment. That is new-speak, and bad one. Every body know the difference between a forum and a saloon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    It is open to members of the public at the discretion of the owner and his representatives
    Of course it is. Who say differently ? And why do you bring that up ? Even not-privately(also called public) owned place are run by representative.
    It seem that you get blinded by the "who call the shot". Here, it is you.
    But you don't get to decide what a forum is. A dictionary do. Forum are public places by definition, get used to it, or start a cult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    One of the conditions of access is that members follow the rules, implicit and explicit. Your alternative view on this is completely wrong.
    Indeed, like on the road and every place in the universe, and it is easier when they are not implicit.
    I hold no alternate views on anything, you may want to reconsider yours.
    mayflow likes this.
     

  33. #33  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    350
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    That is simply untrue. I would never do that. You are free to speak as you may wish to me.
    But freedom of speech includes a freedom not to speak. You wish to compel me to write in a way that conforms to your tastes. That takes away my right to express myself freely -- which includes selecting which part of a quote I am responding to. Do you not see the inherent hypocrisy in your stance?

    As long as my selective quoting does not constitute a misrepresentation of the overall meaning of the quote, there is no foul. I am not obligated to quote the whole thing just to satisfy your arbitrary whims (I think you complained that truncation eliminated the "most poignant" parts of a post).
     

  34. #34  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Usually, it does seem to me that the most poignant part of a post or poem is at the end. I am not forcing anything on you or anyone, I am just discussing.
     

  35. #35  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    551
    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    I have no idea why you have written that. There is no such thing as a "private forum". That is an oxymoron.
    By this place being a private forum he meant that it's privately owned.
     

  36. #36  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist
    By this place being a private forum he meant that it's privately owned.
    But of course. Everything is privately owned. And what is not "owned" is still managed by some kind of representative who calls the shots.
    I bring up that point because yellow cooking forum or purple ecologic forum does not change what a forum is.

    Is there any consequences you yourself can explain to me as about the practical workings of a forum, if you were to discover that it would be hold by Alien ? Did the law of physics change or your willingness to participate change ?

    I sure can't see any. For me "who owns a forum" is an invariant operator to describe the forum workings (trying to use scientific jargon to make myself clear, and bringing a little humor in the process)
     

  37. #37  
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    At the foot of Bennachie
    Posts
    67
    Boing, you appear to be being deliberately obtuse. In many countries of the world their are laws, or constitutional guarantees to free speech. Those guarantees do not extend to such things as privately owned and operated forums. Here, none of us have a right to free speech. The right to speech here is granted to us by the owner of the site and can be withdrawn at any time. So, you and mayflow, and me and tk421 have no rights to say what we will here. It is that simple and I really am done with this.
     

  38. #38  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Ophiolite, you seem very quick to call people obtuse, was that what you were asked here to do?
     

  39. #39  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Boing, you appear to be being deliberately obtuse. In many countries of the world their are laws, or constitutional guarantees to free speech.
    I understand you have that impression, but I cannot lead you to correct that impression.
    I will once more try to make myself clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Those guarantees do not extend to such things as privately owned and operated forums
    I have said precisely the same thing to mayflow at post #30. Too bad edit does not work, my dyslexia got most of the words with errors.
    But I already 100% agree with you on this precise fact on post#16. "Freedom of speech" is a smoke screen, or a sorry excuses, most of the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ophiolite
    Here, none of us have a right to free speech. The right to speech here is granted to us by the owner of the site and can be withdrawn at any time
    You cannot be more wrong, or you cannot make a so poor choice of wording. A Forum exist only if people have free speech. Or else, you are running a masquerade. Beside, I repeat strongly your/mine arguments, NO RIGHTS are given to us by the owner or anywho. You are the only one that speak about rights or guarantee. I suggest you hit control-F and make a quick scan.

    The possibility/opportunity to gather in this forum is give to us by owner of that site (thank them BTW), and the moderator which take the burden to police the place. Still no rights involved.

    But you and I have no right to break rules. We agree on that. Maybe it is a cultural/language gap.
     

  40. #40  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    997
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    Ophiolite, you seem very quick to call people obtuse, was that what you were asked here to do?
    Mayflo, it appears to me that you seem more interested in these issues than in Physics. Might I suggest that you consider joining other forums where folks like to debate these issues. Personally I find this discussion very dull. We are here as guests, we should behave like guests. We shouldn't be questioning our hosts motives for holding the party!
     

  41. #41  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Probably correct Jilli and my name is Mayflow, not Mayflo, and it really does as you infer, interest me more as to the whys of people say than to the whats of what they say. I think Ophiolite was asked here to not just up and ban people but to give them respect, but I am starting to think I am wrong, and he justs gets off on banning people and calling them names, and taking unfair advantage of a moderator postition. TK 421 had something correct when he said I have a problem with authority, but when the chief of police just wants to use his position to force others to his viewpoints, do you wish to accept that?
     

  42. #42  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    997
    We should not be questioning the bouncers. It's bad party etiquette. I'm guessing you don't get out much.
    Just enjoy the party!
    mayflow likes this.
     

  43. #43  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Jillian, July ann, whatevers, you think interestingly!
     

  44. #44  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    551
    Hey! Will you people just stop it please? I started this thread as a tribute to a quality that Ophiolite that I greatly admire, i.e. the ability and willingness to correct ones errors openly and honestly privately or publically and instead of admiring Ophiolite as an example for how members should behave all I see is attacks on him. That's not the purpose of this thread so your taking it off subject. I am therefore asking all of you to cease fire and use this thread for why it was created, i.e. the standard that Ophiolite has established by readily admitting his mistake.

    Thank you again, Ophiolite!
     

  45. #45  
    Senior Member Boing3000's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    194
    Quote Originally Posted by Jilan
    We should not be questioning the bouncers. It's bad party etiquette
    The only unquestionable etiquette I know about party is :"let's party !"
    All bouncers rely on you for that.

    Now if the party turns into some kind of weird "Eyes wide shut" scenery, I suppose even you will start re-evaluating.

    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow
    I have a problem with authority
    Come on mayflow, you've got a personal pass of not being thrown out of this party by you personal nemesis, and you are the only one complaining here. It is unfair to us, low level party-cipant. You can by a cabin in the wood. Nobody will bother you there, especially tough critics (although bear can have some points )

    I backup Jilan on this one.
     

  46. #46  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Tell it to the people your hero banned.
     

  47. #47  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    236
    Jilan, 100? So cool! The problem with squares is the straight sides and something I call non-spiral thinking which hold on to the old without embracing the new. You cannot embrace the new if you ban its ways of thinking, I do not think. ps Yeah you are right, I don't get out much.
     

  48. #48  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    551
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    Tell it to the people your hero banned.
    You keep talking about freedom and then show me that you have no sense of allowing my thread to be left to what it was created for. How are you honoring my freedom in that respect?
     

  49. #49  
    Administrator SpeedFreek's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    308
    Quote Originally Posted by mayflow View Post
    Tell it to the people your hero banned.
    So far, Ophiolite has suspended only one person - Beer w/Straw - a person who was already on a warning from me for using abusive language but continued to do so, saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by Beer w/Straw View Post
    If I get suspended for my comments, just ban me forever.
    I did not suspend Beer w/Straw after that, but instead replied to Beer w/Straw, saying:

    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    I do understand your frustration, don't worry. But we cannot allow people to throw insults around and allow threads to descend into slanging matches, so I hope you can understand that this kind of behaviour has to stop.

    Farsights contentious threads and comments have been moved to the Personal Theories forum, where they belong.

    Rather than looking backwards, let's see if we can move forward now, eh?
    Then PhysBang and Farsight started bickering, and Ophiolite warned them that both of them were out of order, and that nobody should comment on his warning in the thread (which is the standard rule on discussing moderation on most forums), but Beer w/Straw decided to comment anyway. Ophiolite even let that pass, giving Beer w/Straw the benefit of the doubt, but asked that Beer w/Straw not test his patience any further.

    Beer w/Straw was given many chances, but instead replied, once again "Ban me".

    So Ophiolite, quite rightly, suspended Beer w/Straw for 7 days.

    Meanwhile, since Markus's announcement, I have given x0x and Boing3000 3 day suspensions (which they took with good grace), and banned Gerry Nightingale, TFOLZO and Farsight permanently.

    Ophiolite made a mistake with Physicist which he went on to rectify to Physicists satisfaction, and that alone is the topic of this thread. If anyone wants to discuss any of the other moderator actions I mentioned above, please do so via PM with a moderator or using the report post function. If anyone wants to discuss general moderation issues, please open a separate thread in this "Site Feedback" section.
     

  50. #50  
    Administrator Markus Hanke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    1,378
    we will resume normal business, that is: bickering about physics
    Gentlemen, this is all I really want - to bicker about physics

    In an ideal world this forum would contain only intellectual exchanges purely about physics - I know of course that this will never happen, because people's egos stand in the way of that. Humans have a natural tendency of wanting to be right, so admitting you were wrong about something can be very difficult, especially in a public setting, and I fully understand that. Furthermore, the longer a particular discussion goes on, the harder it becomes for someone to admit errors and misunderstandings - Farsight is a good example of this. He has been pushing his "variable speed of light" idea across the Internet for over a decade now, and has even self-published a book about it. He has simply invested too much time, effort, and self-esteem into the idea to be able to admit he's wrong, though deep down he probably knows he's on the wrong track. Once someone runs out of meaningful arguments to defend a wrong idea, things usually either start to go in circles, or become personal, or both.

    But regardless, I think everyone needs to take a step back and sometimes admit he/she was wrong about something, and take that as successfully having learned something new. As moderators, we shall try and help people to do this, and make them understand that this is not a bad thing but an opportunity for advancement, but there will always be cases where it is simply not possible because the person in question just isn't ready to make that step; and oftentimes then it is better to pull the plug on such posters and send them along to greener pastures. Taking that step will always create controversy, that is unavoidable.

    I see there is a lot of controversy and disagreement here on this forum at the moment, but you all need to keep in mind the bigger picture and remember that implementing change always leads to a certain amount of controversy and upset, because it shakes people out of their comfortable routines. I nonetheless will keep at this, because ultimately this forum will come out a better place with less personal confrontation and more physics, even if that means a little less overall activity.
    Boing3000 and Ophiolite like this.
     

  51. #51  
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post
    This is a forum for established science. It is a place where established science is to be discussed with decorum. It is not a place for people to claim that modern physicists are misinterpreting the words of Einstein, or going against Einstein's original theory. Hence Farsight is now banned too.
    That's ridiculous. I've been censored for putting a good case that left Markus painting himself into a corner as to why the vertical light beam doesn't get out of a black hole.

    Quote Originally Posted by Markus Hanke
    ...He has been pushing his "variable speed of light" idea across the Internet for over a decade now...
    Again, see Baez:

    "Einstein talked about the speed of light changing in his new theory. In his 1920 book "Relativity: the special and general theory" he wrote: "... according to the general theory of relativity, the law of the constancy of the velocity of light in vacuo, which constitutes one of the two fundamental assumptions in the special theory of relativity [...] cannot claim any unlimited validity. A curvature of rays of light can only take place when the velocity [Einstein means speed here] of propagation of light varies with position." This difference in speeds is precisely that referred to above by ceiling and floor observers."

    You know Markus, I've been utterly insulted and abused on this forum, you have given free rein to trolls, and you're still insulting me. Because I bested you in a discussion. Because you're dishonest, and a charlatan, somebody who brooks no challenge as he peddles his own understanding as "mainstream" physics. So you know what? I'm going to sue you for slander. I hope you've got deep pockets.

    All: by the way, Physicist doesn't want anybody revealing the contents of a PM because he wants to be abusive in a PM. Here's one he sent on another forum:

    Quote Originally Posted by pmb
    It was incredibly wrong of you to take what I said in PM and post it in open forum as if I said it in open forum. And you have the audacity to claim that the total nonsense that you paste all of the internet is merely a matter of opinion and that I can't admit to being wrong is just the idiot crap that I needed to hear from you to NEVER talk to you EVER again.

    First you LIE YOU ASS OFF by claiming I was saying I was an authority when in fact you are you damn stupid to see that I was saying that authority is a source of knowledge where "authority" is an expert other than oneself. And I AM an expert in my field. That's what happens when you spend countless years in college all the way through graduate studies then work as a physicist and that ain't you, that's for damn sure.

    What's worse is your DUMBASS claim that I can't admit that I'm wrong merely because I PROVE that everything you say is sh1t.

    **** off
    Farsight over and out.
     

  52. #52  
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    997
    Quite right. There should be no fear associated with admitting mistakes as someone who isn't making mistakes is not trying something new. The problem only arises when you just know certain individuals will taunt you about it for the rest of your life and that can make it harder than it should be. I propose that each time someone admits a mistake we should all "like" it.
     

  53. #53  
    x0x
    x0x is offline
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    737
    Quote Originally Posted by SpeedFreek View Post

    Ophiolite made a mistake with Physicist which he went on to rectify to Physicists satisfaction.
    Any of you two care to share what was Ophiolite "mistake"?
     

  54. #54  
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    At the foot of Bennachie
    Posts
    67
    I misread the date of a post by physicist that contravened our tightened rules. By pm I asked him "what the **** are you playing at?" and proceeded to give him a piece of my mind at his irresponsibility in totally ignoring all the requests and rulings by staff and flagrantly placing in jeopardy our attempts to remove such interplay from the forum. He expressed outrage and bemusement at this attack. I investigated immediately and found my error, at which point I gave him an unreserved apology that was also copied to the moderator section of the forum.

    Having witnessed how this entire thread has deteriorated I wish I had acted on my first instinct and deleted it from the outset, but I felt that would have been rude to physicist.
    Jilan likes this.
     

  55. #55  
    Administrator Markus Hanke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    1,378
    Quite right. There should be no fear associated with admitting mistakes as someone who isn't making mistakes is not trying something new. The problem only arises when you just know certain individuals will taunt you about it for the rest of your life and that can make it harder than it should be. I propose that each time someone admits a mistake we should all "like" it.
    Being able to admit a mistake or - which is even harder - acknowledge that your understanding was wrong on a specific point is a sign of strength, character and willingness to learn and advance yourself. You don't haunt people because of it, on the contrary, you tell them you admire that achievement and encourage them to keep progressing. I just had to do that myself over on TSF in a discussion about Hawking radiation - turns out I was all along holding two basic misconceptions which were totally wrong. A poster made me do further research which showed me the error in my understanding, and I am very grateful for it, since I have learned something new...this is one of the reasons I am on forums in the first place
     

  56. #56  
    Administrator Markus Hanke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Ireland
    Posts
    1,378
    This thread has been closed, however, given the circumstances I believe it is appropriate to add a few clarifying remarks here.

    As clearly stipulated on the Forum Rules sticky in the Announcements section, this is a mainstream physics forum. The "mainstream" in the context of modern physics is defined as present scientific consensus, and is represented by standard textbooks on the subject matter as used when teaching this within third level institutions. So far as gravity in General Relativity is concerned, the present consensus is that it is a manifestation of geodesic deviation, i.e. relative acceleration between test particles as a result of space-time curvature, and not a consequence of variations in the speed of light; rather, it is a geometric property of space-time itself :

    Albert Einstein, The Meaning of Relativity, pages 84 and 98
    Misner/Thorne/Wheeler, Gravitation, pages 5 and 29
    Hobson/Efstathiou/Lasenby, General Relativity - An Introduction for Physicists, pages 149, 150, 188
    Sean Carroll, Spacetime and Geometry - An Introduction to General Relativity, pages 1 and 2
    James B Hartle, Gravity - An Introduction to Einstein's General Relativity, pages 13 and 15
    Hans C. Ohanian, Gravitation and Spacetime, page 116
    Bernard Schutz, A First Course in General Relativity, pages 117 and 118
    Wolfgang Rindler, Relativity - Special, General and Cosmological, 2nd Edition, page 21
    T Padmanabhan, Gravitation - Foundations and Frontiers, page 131
    Robert M Wald, General Relativity, page 9

    The above list - which is not exhaustive - is generally regarded as the standard set of textbooks on the subject matter of General Relativity, and it can therefore be reasonably assumed that it encapsulates what is considered the "mainstream" when it comes to gravitational physics. I wish to clarify at this point that any and all comments I have made and continue to make on this and other forums are made with the above scientific consensus as my point of reference, and not just mere personal opinion; so when I state that someone or something is "wrong" then that is merely a statement of fact that the point I refer to is not in accord with, or contrary to, the above defined scientific consensus. In the specific case at hand, and based on the above texts, my true and genuine understanding of General Relativity is that it is not a theory of variable speeds of light, but at its heart a model of geometrodynamics, i.e. geodesic deviation in curved space-times. Representing Einsteinian relativity as a model of variable speeds of light is therefore factually incorrect as evidenced by the above standard texts, and my stating so is therefore not an attack on character but rather a clarification of the current scientific consensus in the interest of those casual readers and members who come onto this forum to learn about modern physics. It is, in essence, simply a truthful statement.

    It must be remembered in this context that this forum has been established as a mainstream physics forum; hence members and visitors coming here shall expect to find discussions about, and elaborations on, mainstream physics as defined by current consensus. It is therefore essential and in the public interest that non-mainstream ideas, while being permitted in the appropriate forum sections or discussed in the main sections at the discretion of the moderators, are being identified as such. Not every visitor here may have enough background knowledge to do this him/herself, so I truly believe that this is very important.

    Furthermore, each and every post that is published on this forum remains published here, as is also the case on other Internet forums; this means that the entire posting history of any one individual member who chooses to use the same username across several platforms, is a matter of public record and easily accessed by members of the wider public. When I make statements about a member's intellectual and rhetorical conduct, then this will always be based on actual posting history on this forum and other forums, and will hence once again be a truthful statement. In the specific case at hand, when I say that a poster is unable to admit he is wrong, then this is based on the discussions on this forum within which the poster has been confronted with the scientific consensus as detailed in the texts above, yet continued to assert his opinion that gravity is manifested in a variation in the speed of light, which is contrary to aforementioned textbooks. This is once again not an attack on character, but simply a statement of fact which I genuinely believe to be true, and which can easily be verified by reading through the respective posts, based on publicly accessible records here and elsewhere.
     

Posting Permissions
  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •