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Thread: Carbon based Life vs. Plasma based Life.

  1. #1 Carbon based Life vs. Plasma based Life. 
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    Life based on carbon needs very especial conditions to thrive, life on earth is a clear example of that. Lots of time and research have been dedicated trying to find carbon based life elsewhere on the Universe, but that search may be too narrow because that search assumes that life can only be based on carbon.

    The genesis of Life appears somehow to contradicts(locally) the second law of thermodynamics, this law in essence state that " the degree of
    disorder or randomness(entropy) in our Universe always is increasing", but Life is characterized by an increase in order( a decrease in entropy ). It appears that when "complex" systems are considered then some "emergent" properties are present that can not be explained by consideration of "basic principles". The emergency/genesis of carbon based Life is such an emergent property.

    It will be very naïve to think that these emerging properties are the absolute domain of chemical reactions( carbon based/organic chemical reactions ), complex plasmas also are subject to the same emergent properties of self-organization, as it is explained in the 2008 book: Elementary Physics of Complex plasmas: Elementary Physics of Complex Plasmas | V.N. Tsytovich, Gregor Morfill, Sergey V. Vladimirov, Hubertus M. Thomas | digital library Bookfi, so Life based on plasma could be a real possibility and the overwhelming observations of anomalies suggest strongly that these objects may be "plasma-based" life forms.

    If plasma based life is a reality, and recent developments in the physics of complex plasmas suggest that( see Elementary Physics of Complex Plasmas | V.N. Tsytovich, Gregor Morfill, Sergey V. Vladimirov, Hubertus M. Thomas | digital library Bookfi ), then that kind of life may have been present in our Universe since very early after the Big Ban, and if plasma based life follows more or less the same principles that carbon based life, then plasma based life forms had plenty of time to expand all over the Universe. Plasma based life forms exist in “empty” space, there is nothing practically that can slow down their expansion in any direction.

    Carbon based life forms could have not emerged very early in our Universe because the basic elements for carbon based life forms are created inside stars, so that implies that several billions years have to pass before these elements are abundant enough for carbon based life forms to be a reality. It could be argued( The Anthropic Principle ) that for us to be here the Universe needs to be as old as it is now, but that argument do not applies to plasma based life forms.

    If that is the case then ironically carbon based life forms could be the rarest/anomalous occurrence in the Universe. Then in a very accurate sense what we call anomalies today could name us “anomalies” and that label will reflect more exactly the actual situation.

    Anomalies are being observed in an almost daily basis all over our planet, the fact that their reality is not recognized by “official science” is really irrelevant, this is a real phenomenon and anomalies have many features that strongly indicates that they are living forms:
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeremyjr
    If that is the case then ironically carbon based life forms could be the rarest/anomalous occurrence in the Universe.
    If...

    ... and that's the problem. Sci-fi authors have played extensively with that possibility, but science wise, I see many problems. Life does NOT contradict the second law of thermodynamics. Life is probably the greatest catalyst for increasing entropy, environmentalists know that fact.
    It is easy to get fooled by those pseudo local increase in order, which are skin deep. A living thing is chaos incarnated of many degree of magnitude bigger that the chaos of a cloud, being made of water droplet, or plasma of a star.

    The definition of life is also important here. Is anything that replicate can be qualified as life ? Or some degree of freedom (mutation) is to be included ?

    Anyway, I doubt that entropy could be increased in natural plasma, which, as far as I know, only exist in stars. Would there be a way for energy to reach its bottom level sooner in stars that it is already ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boing3000 View Post
    If...

    ... and that's the problem. Sci-fi authors have played extensively with that possibility, but science wise, I see many problems. Life does NOT contradict the second law of thermodynamics. Life is probably the greatest catalyst for increasing entropy, environmentalists know that fact.
    It is easy to get fooled by those pseudo local increase in order, which are skin deep. A living thing is chaos incarnated of many degree of magnitude bigger that the chaos of a cloud, being made of water droplet, or plasma of a star.

    The definition of life is also important here. Is anything that replicate can be qualified as life ? Or some degree of freedom (mutation) is to be included ?

    Anyway, I doubt that entropy could be increased in natural plasma, which, as far as I know, only exist in stars. Would there be a way for energy to reach its bottom level sooner in stars that it is already ?
    In the 2008 book: "Elementary Physics of Complex Plasmas", by authors V. N. Tsytovich et al.(Elementary Physics of Complex Plasmas | V.N. Tsytovich, Gregor Morfill, Sergey V. Vladimirov, Hubertus M. Thomas | digital library Bookfi) It is mentioned the "self-organization tendency of complex plasma" and the following striking fact: "that the description of electrostatics of DNA is surprisingly similar to that used in complex plasma". So from this is really not far fetched to infer the real possibility of the emergency/genesis of Life based on complex plasma.

    We should be looking for autonomous plasma-like/amorphous objects in empty space, objects that very likely are similar to unicellular microorganisms showing the same amoebic pulsations and/or configurations, but of course nature forms always will be richer than anybody imagination. These objects of course will be very hard to spot at long distance but not at relatively close range, also very likely some of these objects will be self-luminous and will respond to electromagnetic pulses, maybe they will be found in the high levels of our atmosphere were the atmosphere is very rare, if they already had been spotted and not recognized by what they are it is likely that they were called "anomalies".
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    At a fundamental level chaos is a probabilistic concept. An ocean full of water molecules where any water molecule is the same as another is more probable to create by chance than a biosphere.
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    I don't won't to get of topic here, but chaos is quite different to randomness. The first is deterministic the second one isn't.
    Boing3000 and Maria like this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pikpobedy
    At a fundamental level chaos is a probabilistic concept
    I would just say the opposite. Chaos is order, it's born from very simple rule, and it is unpredictable, although you'll recognize its shape. It is the invert of randomness.
    I personally think we need some kind of breakthrough in chaos mathematics, because linear mathematics is just approximation. It cannot even solve a few planet orbiting around.

    But choas forms pattern, wave on a sea, leaf on a tree. That's where it is relevant to the OP. Because when pattern arise, from wind oscillation, from tides, from day night transition, or for whatever simple rules influence plasma, it gives them more chance to duplicate.

    I don't think it's useful to consider entropy as a measure of disorder, I prefer to consider that as the decrease of potential.
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